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Visions See also: MicroHouse Chat September 6, 2007AndriusKulikauskas: Jeff, have you had more thoughts about fabricating micro houses? yes, you wrote a proposal and I'm curious what next steps you are interested in? Steve Bosserman keeps pointing to this and I like his insight, but I think he's interested who might lead work on that? Steve is interested in microhouses but would rather coach than lead :: so we were in interested Jeff that you care about this. AndriusKulikauskas: Rick, what business opportunities do you see at our lab that we might pursue? RickNelson: yes, Jeff I would like to talk more about the MicroHouse. I believe that such projects also can function as microHubs and micro unityCenters. I am going to be in Norway next week and an EcoCommunity near Oslo is planning to build a micro house.
Jefbuder: fabricating micro houses? yes the key is the skills and the money to experiment. right but it is not clear the steps forward. Jefbuder: ok and so has anyone cosnidered the DIY SOlar option which is similar. AndriusKulikauskas: and also figuring out what should be purchased locally :: and what globally Jefbuder: i am interested in how telecenters can be sustained. a telecenter is like a cybercafe except it has a community development mission. now my thought is that the DIY angle might be worth consider because that is closer to our network. Jefbuder: so i guess my view would be to do research on each of the options and assign priorities based on what is most feasible :: facilitation. now my thought is that the DIY angle might be worth consider because that is closer to our network AndriusKulikauskas: I'm trying to learn what each of us wants to do so that we can support each other Jefbuder: to ask questions and provide resources :: and possibly to help with locating possible funders and assistance with proposal writing :: so we have considered various options :: i learn toward building on what has already been accomplished in our network in Kibera AndriusKulikauskas: If I and Steve and you and Markus are all facilitators - and in some sense we all are - but then we don't have an endeavor Jefbuder: which is primarily with Fre Ouki Markus: well true AndriusKulikauskas: but if we each have personal endeavors that we want to achieve, then we can facilitate each other Markus: but i know that if you read MY FOOD STORY you will see AndriusKulikauskas: so I'm trying to learn what each of us wants to do personally Markus: one of my storiues lists RISK Solidarity Centre in Reading UK Jefbuder: right we cant be much more than facilitators because we are not in the field :: in Kenya :: at least not righ now Markus: it is one of these telecentres you talk of AndriusKulikauskas: yes but I'm in Lithuania on the ground :: and I have my endeavors :: like the Flash drive editor for example SteveB: And I'm on the ground in Columbus AndriusKulikauskas: yes Jefbuder: yes everyone has their agendas AndriusKulikauskas: yes and that is what we want to learn Markus: well I am connected to a project in Denmark :: maybe it will be a living for me SteveB: and what is that project Markus? AndriusKulikauskas: Jeff, Steve, Markus, Andrius - what are our agendas? Markus: and I will be quite free with oit Jefbuder: but the discussion we have had so far is focused on Kenya :: and Kibera in particular AndriusKulikauskas: yes but they left and now we are discussing microhouses with Rick and Steve Markus: but till I am based anywhere its hard to do the locla commuity stuff needed Jefbuder: so regardless of our agendas we have consider the situation on the ground Markus: and not just connects] :: and I will not do that till I am in a relationship Jefbuder: I started discussing the microhouses and then the discussion drifted towards teh computers Markus: I think AndriusKulikauskas: well my wish is that we focus first on our own agendas :: so that we could be accountable to each other :: and supportive directly of each other :: because if we can't do that then we may be destructive to others who we intend to help Jefbuder: that does not make sense to me AndriusKulikauskas: why not? SteveB: well markus i am going to be splitting my time between germany and columbus so i will have my feet on either side of the pond Jefbuder: its the opposite AndriusKulikauskas: please explain Jeff Jefbuder: how can push your agendas on Kennedy and Sam AndriusKulikauskas: I'm hoping we don't push our agendas :: so it's important that we make visible our agendas :: and then people can choose them or not :: and we can cooperate or not SteveB: sounds like a definition of terms is in order, what do you mean by "agenda"? AndriusKulikauskas: but if we don't have agendas :: or if they aren't visible :: then they can sneak in and they usually do :: but it confuses people :: and may pressure people SteveB: for me an agenda is something i care about AndriusKulikauskas: yes Jefbuder: i feel this discussion is moot SteveB: i need to know what others care about so i help them and they help me AndriusKulikauskas: for me this is a central issue Jefbuder: I dont feel there was any indication of pressue on Sam and Kennedy AndriusKulikauskas: to know what people care about and can commit to :: I'm talking about us now :: what do we want to do? Jefbuder: and I feel pressured now! AndriusKulikauskas: well yes Jefbuder: because you are not creating an open space for dialog SteveB: i think this is called accountability, jeff AndriusKulikauskas: no it's not entirely open :: it's focused RickNelson: hi - I'm back and I would like to talk a bit about micohouse AndriusKulikauskas: Hi Rick :: yes and Steve is here RickNelson: Steve, that is your project? SteveB: Hi Rick RickNelson: Hi Steve, you are in Columbus SteveB: i have a concept for microhouses that I am putting together for columbus RickNelson: I will be in Ohio beginning of October SteveB: we need to get you to columbus for sure :: jeff suggested you meet barry adler who has an interesting business concept :: i have others i would like you to meet as well :: the local high school has a program for seniors that teaches them green building techniques Jefbuder: Yes Rick I thinik it would be great if you could meet with Barry and Steve in Columbus SteveB: they actually build a home for a family to own like habitat for humanity RickNelson: have a nephew that is getting married on 6th and my sister lives near Toledo SteveB: toledo is two hours from me Jefbuder: I also have sent an email to Scott Fossil in SF about your possible trip to CA :: Scott is director of Green Century Institute Markus: i am off bye :: thanks for chat Jefbuder: bye SteveB: bye AndriusKulikauskas: Markus, thank you Markus: but its bit not focused to stuff ican contribute to now Jefbuder: id loke to know more about ISOC grant for Africa Markus: bye RickNelson: cheers markus AndriusKulikauskas: Markus if you have an artist for our video bridge on Sunday please let me know RickNelson: I am still not too certain about getting down to Ca or Arizona but it is very tempting Markus: jef sent you emails :: bye Jefbuder: thanks a lot :: bye :: Rick tell me a date when you can be at Arcosanti :: I think it would be good for you to go there :: and we coiuld finally meet in person RickNelson: Steve, I am going to build a small eco cabin in Norway and it is a "MicroHouse" SteveB: is it your design? RickNelson: I will really try to work things out to be able to get to Arizona and then it is a small hop over to SF SteveB: jeff has a business concept for microhouses that he forwarded to GV last week have you had a chance to read it? RickNelson: yes, I have a small ppt on the design - I have built it 30 years ago - was my first style of SolaRoof Jefbuder: yes Rick SteveB: do you have a URL for the .ppt? Jefbuder: Did I send you the LaLoggia PDF
SteveB: uh I can't recall it :: but that doesn't mean anything I would forget my name if I wasn't on this call Jefbuder: hehe sorry I meant to say Rick SteveB: Ohhhh. OK Jefbuder: the project is for a biointegrated greenhouse at Arcosanti :: that has been talked about for many years but never acted upon :: so that maybe can tie us to the microhouse discussion SteveB: jeff, what about your business concept? That is important place to start I think Jefbuder: my thought is that we would not development stage funding RickNelson: no, I have not posted except at files section of SolaRoof yahoogroups, which is private - you need to join to see files :: i can send you by email SteveB: OK if I join? :: thanks! RickNelson: yes go ahead at solaroof-subscribe AT yahoogroups.com AndriusKulikauskas: Steve has zoomed in on the importance of microhouses :: but now we're wondering I think where to go with his insight :: I told Steve that our lab can't do much unless there is a person who cares about that of their own :: and so we halted there but Jeff responded with a proposal :: so we were happy about that, but that's where we are now RickNelson: the file is called ControlledEnvironmentModule.ppt AndriusKulikauskas: So I'm trying to understand us, what each of us wants SteveB: my concept of a microhouse is that it is portable, affordable, modular, can be manufactured close to the point of construction, and is easily maintained AndriusKulikauskas: so that if we work openly I can try to pursue a related business opportunity Jefbuder: ok well i dont see the microhouse concept developing until there is investment to develop a proot of concept :: that is a small ecovillage AndriusKulikauskas: I would engage the existing small house community SteveB: there are many microhouses out there, but none that meet all my requirements Jefbuder: and that the ecovillage would develop some kind of solaroof farming system AndriusKulikauskas: my own interest here would most likely be to document a pattern language of what's been working Jefbuder: and so we would give the project say 1-3 year to turn a profit SteveB: there is a market right here in columbus for such a microhouse AndriusKulikauskas: Jeff, I think that's one route, but SteveB: what i need is a design to work with Jefbuder: and then it could develop as one of it businesses a system of producing these houses RickNelson: a microhouse can provide individual freedom to live sustainably without needing an "EcoCommunity" to form first
SteveB: where' :: where's an architect when you need one Jefbuder: i am sure but that is one model which makes the most sense to me AndriusKulikauskas: I can invest a bit of my energy for free if I understand what you or Steve or Rick would like to achieve here :: and I can also encourage people at our lab to care RickNelson: no, a microhouse can be built without an ecocommunity to back it AndriusKulikauskas: if there are people "working for free" in this direction :: to make it happen. Jefbuder: sure anything can be built without a community SteveB: I concur with rick it can. We need a design Jefbuder: i am just outlining my direction :: in a way that makes sense to me AndriusKulikauskas: So I'm trying to understand what we personally would like to dream and achieve. SteveB: then, with the design we can engage people in building it RickNelson: only 2% of alll buildings are built by architects AndriusKulikauskas: Rick, Steve, likewise I might ask you the same, what are we dreaming that we would like to achieve? SteveB: in fact I can work with the school to teach kids how to build it RickNelson: we need a proven DIY method like the settlers and pioneers used SteveB: why would we want to throw away all of that computerized design technology? RickNelson: yes, children and youth can build and learn to be self reliant SteveB: i also want them to understand the significance of current and future technology Jefbuder: sure anything can be built without a community but is really sustainable in terms of how we seem to evolving as a network? SteveB: community comes about by people working together to achieve what is collectively important to them that they care about :: it is not an intellectual exercise AndriusKulikauskas: yes, and community comes in different scale :: which include family, extended family, a circle of friends :: or even a group within a community SteveB: give me a design and let's start building the homes so that young people gain the experience AndriusKulikauskas: and very rarely is it the entire community SteveB: I concur, Andrius :: we have to start from where we are and go from there :: we each have different realities and different starting points AndriusKulikauskas: Steve, you would like to see a basic design that people could build, yes, either by themselves or get from others or some combination, yes? :: Kind of like a "log cabin"? SteveB: but we can help one another and learn from one another as we each do what we do :: Tiny Homes is an example of what you are saying :: it is literally a wooden home on wheels AndriusKulikauskas: And I am seeing that that could be a key piece of a pattern language that it works within, which I suppose is compatible. :: Steve, what size of house are you thinking, and estimated cost? SteveB: Jay Schafer is the designer he works in the bay area Jefbuder: So I guess my goal is to create a center starting out with 10-15 people :: in which the idea of the microhome idea will be experimented upon SteveB: the size is 10 feet x 10 feet and is a module to which other modules can be easily added Jefbuder: as has been done at Acrcosanti SteveB: the 10 x 10 is self-contained AndriusKulikauskas: that's helpful, Jeff! and are you focused on a single place, a network of places, or a design for a place? Jefbuder: many of us going through the workshop program lived in 10 by 10s :: but they were not selfcontained SteveB: I saw such a creature in munich last month RickNelson: that is about the size of the solaroof structure that I built way back when and it is described in the file that I posted SteveB: but it was EXPENSIVE Jefbuder: the structure was made out of concrete with wood frame roof SteveB: and it was not manufacturable locally Jefbuder: modular concrete tilt up panels AndriusKulikauskas: Steve, what price are you aiming for? SteveB: if we could get it to be not more than $20K that would be great AndriusKulikauskas: Rick, what is your dream in this mesh of dreams? RickNelson: my approach was wood frames with plywood skin and urethane insulation sheeting AndriusKulikauskas: Steve, that sounds like a great goal that we can work towards. :: And affordable even in places like Lithuania or even Nairobi. RickNelson: I would hope to build an example near Oslo that can go through the winter producing fresh veg and all the solar heating needed SteveB: I think we can adapt Jeff's business concept to these criteria and have a more detailed set of objective Jefbuder: so has anyone put anything together in terms of research or a proposal besides me? SteveB: and yes they could be built ANYWHERE by nearly ANYONE :: why do we need more research RickNelson: my approach is to have a guest room in this micohouse that can be hired out to ecoguests
AndriusKulikauskas: Jeff, this is what I have done so far with STeve: RickNelson: this is the EcoBnB business model SteveB: My thought too, Rick RickNelson: many people would be happy to stay and learn for a week or more AndriusKulikauskas: but my wish now is to understand us as people, what might be natural for us to commit ourselves to SteveB: that would be one of the extra modules to attach to the basic structure 10x10 AndriusKulikauskas: Jeff, what is it that you would seek to do different than is the case at Arcosanti? SteveB: depending upon one's circumstances there would be different modules available RickNelson: well my module has a 10 x 10 cross section but can be 16 or 24 feet long etc AndriusKulikauskas: Rick, so you are focusing on the EcoBnB model, yes? and you are building a place in Malaysia and you want to see a network of such places, yes? SteveB: oh yes, one other point, the building much meet building codes AndriusKulikauskas: and what does it take, Rick, to be considered part of your network of EcoBnB ? what is essential? RickNelson: in Malaysia it will be a large scale EcoBnB SteveB: Rick can you post the EcoBnB design? or is it already theres Jefbuder: Arcosanti is not really sustainable and so working with them to build LaLoggia might be an opportunity :: but it would be a major project that may not really be relevant to the discussion here RickNelson: I would like to see an Open Network of such EcoBnB of all sizes and types
SteveB: i want to build one in my back yard RickNelson: yes, that's what I did and then I moved it twice AndriusKulikauskas: Rick what defines a EcoBnB for you? Jefbuder: but in relation to your question the Arcosanti project is not designed to really consider the needs of the people there SteveB: that's the reason why it has to be portable! RickNelson: picked up and placed on a flat bed trailer Jefbuder: it is not affirming the idea of community RickNelson: the BnB model is a micro tourism thing and so the EcoBnB is giving the small enterprise a bit more to work with :: these are usually family businesses SteveB: communities and small businesses - family businesses in particular go together RickNelson: I am especially interested to create an ethical business model that partners local family with wes/north family SteveB: my interest in building one in my backyard is to meet family needs, which is another building block in community :: I like you idea, Rick RickNelson: so, investment funds come from the wealthy country and local culture and connection from the partnering with a natiaonal of the place where the EcoBnB is established Jefbuder: So we all have limited time RickNelson: thus small business EcoTourism is more development friendly to areas depending on tourism for development AndriusKulikauskas: Jeff, so you are interested in a center with 10 to 15 people, yes? and do you want to live there for life, or just help it get started, and I imagine it's one of a network, yes? Jefbuder: i would never say life for life until i saw the place RickNelson: Jeff could you see such a center created from a cluster of micro houses Jefbuder: the key for me is to consider what is the most realistic step in that process of building a community center/ecovillage whatever AndriusKulikauskas: Jeff, sure. And do you know where in the world you would like to live? Jefbuder: i would not want to do it as just my homestead in other words AndriusKulikauskas: I imagine realistic steps include - finding the people who you want to do this with SteveB: jeff, you can come to columbus! AndriusKulikauskas: - knowing what are the outlines of your dream, like where in the world it might be? Jefbuder: i have consider CA in SF area and Arizona RickNelson: i would like to think in terms of a network of EcoCommunities and EcoBnB are just one type of transition AndriusKulikauskas: so you are thinking of the US instead of Africa? :: Rick, yes, but I'm trying to understand each of us in our own terms Jefbuder: i dont see myself as spending my life in Africa AndriusKulikauskas: first and then we should all fit naturally I think :: Jeff, that's great for me to learn - it's a key thing to know RickNelson: what is successful in USA can be replicated around the world because we will always use affordable design AndriusKulikauskas: but Jeff, you would like to travel and help people in different places yes? Jefbuder: yes AndriusKulikauskas: Rick, it's not just about design but maybe more about the culture and the people Jefbuder: if thats possible AndriusKulikauskas: and understanding ourselves and others RickNelson: da, I think I know that AndriusKulikauskas: yes! :: but we haven't emphasized the personal factor in our lives very much RickNelson: but the how to make a transition is what is holding back everybody AndriusKulikauskas: well, for example, I'm in Lithuania where I want to be :: and you are headed for Malaysia :: so those are first steps :: and now in Lithuania I am asking myself fresh, where in Lithuania do I want to be? Jefbuder: good point RickNelson: that is why the EcoBnB is interesting because it offers a good and viable personal enterprise that enables trasnsition to sustainable living AndriusKulikauskas: I have been in the Pavilnys neighborhood for about nine years and I would like to still have a base here so where fighting for that :: but I would like to have a network of bases in Lithuania :: that I could travel among :: and if I start a family then I will decide then where to settle down :: so here in Pavilnys we're now organizing a "putsch" of the local community organization :: and that's the kind of "global villages" question that's relevant for us now. RickNelson: so, get some people interested in ecotourism and as a business model they can adopt the EcoBnB as a way forward AndriusKulikauskas: Just like in Nairobi the question is getting an apartment. :: We have some people who are doing ecotourism and that is one part of the network, yes, but there are others. RickNelson: to the extent that we invest in conventional living space we are not changing and we remain as part of the problem AndriusKulikauskas: I'm just saying that so many questions come up but each of us brings an angle :: and we can understand that angle if we understand each of us :: personally what are we visioning and achieving and how does that relate to our own lives :: so that our examples are evident and we're not imposing on other people instead. RickNelson: we need a MOVEment to establish EcoLiving -we need to give people a taste for it by offering teh EcoBnB experience AndriusKulikauskas: Rick, yes, so that is very helpful that you contribute that angle and that logic. :: And my wish is as we are doing in this chat to discover Steve's and Jeff's angles :: and I'm starting to understand little by little SteveB: Gentlemen, I need to exit. You have my angle already, Andrius. This has been VERY helpful to me. THANKS! RickNelson: it is a big personal step to decide to sell our home and that the next step is a self build project to live in an EcoBnB AndriusKulikauskas: Great, Steve, thank you! Jefbuder: yes I need to go also AndriusKulikauskas: Thank you, Jeff, for chatting. SteveB: And Rick please stay in touch about the OH trip RickNelson: the EcoBnB part of that step is a natural desire to share the experience Jefbuder: Well Rick possibly I could go to Malayasia for training :: if you proceed as planned :: is that something you would be open to? RickNelson: hope to talk again soon Steve :: yes, that is part of the plan - to build a network of these kind of projects AndriusKulikauskas: Jeff, I hope we chat more about your dream - are you interested to join an existing group, or assemble a new group? and what is the business opportunity that you would pursue Jeff: i got bumped out RickNelson: people will stay at an EcoBnB to be certified to build one of their own AndriusKulikauskas: Jeff, I hope we chat more about your dream - are you interested to join an existing group, or assemble a new group? and what is the business opportunity that you would pursue Jeff: ok AndriusKulikauskas: then we can keep organizing around you :: and perhaps help assemble people :: or engage people :: Rick, what business opportunities do you see for EcoBnB for our lab do you think? :: How might we work for you or your clients or with you? RickNelson: i have expressed my hope that Jeff will be a leader in the USA with SolaRoof enterprise opportunities :: it is a question of building, gaining experience and then replication AndriusKulikauskas: I think Steve was thinking similarly that perhaps Jeff and his ecovillage could be a center for construction RickNelson: the methods are very adaptable to different climates and culture AndriusKulikauskas: Rick, I am thinking of engaging the "small house" community to document a pattern language of what works :: and I'm wondering if that might fit with your EcoBnB vision and if you have ideas on business opportunities that I might pursue RickNelson: I think that the time will be right soon for some ecovillage to go ahead in the USA and with Jeff having a lead role - what you say Jeff AndriusKulikauskas: Rick, what defines "EcoBnB" for you, as the common denominator? :: so for example if I go to the small house people and say, hey, join this network, :: what would that mean? :: it would mean that people can stay with them RickNelson: that is a very good question and I think that an open source and networking community can set standards for self regulation AndriusKulikauskas: and I suppose it would mean that people who stay there would learn something about ecological living :: and that the hosts themselves are ever learning about ecological living :: that might be sufficient? RickNelson: they would all be working day in and day out on the best practice of such EcoLiving AndriusKulikauskas: maybe "day in and day out" is not the minimal expectation? :: but rather they are always learning? RickNelson: also, by having guests who live-in and study each project spreads the know-how AndriusKulikauskas: as Samwel Kongere talks about, "knowledge based approach", where every matter is related to learning? :: yes RickNelson: right AndriusKulikauskas: If we defined the network simply like that, then many people would qualify :: and the network would allow for a lot of learning. RickNelson: and it is a good income for a good value AndriusKulikauskas: For example, it could be a subgroup of HospitalityClub.org :: and perhaps a further requirement RickNelson: income when the guests are western/northern travelers AndriusKulikauskas: is that each participant is somehow documenting what they are doing and learning :: in their daily lives :: Another idea that came up regarding Nairobi RickNelson: they will sometimes be volunteer travelers who also lend some of their time and skills to local community development AndriusKulikauskas: because many travelers will stay for free as is the case of HospitalityClub.org :: and they stay without any requirements :: but in parallel with that :: there could be "time shares" :: where for example people might pay 100 USD :: for the right to stay for a week :: and they might sell that or give that to others (upon approval) :: so I proposed that and I wonder if you think it might work? RickNelson: yes, I see a business model where EcoTourists or EcoGuests will also invest as ethical investors in the EcoBnB network :: it is a good model for sustainable tourism developement AndriusKulikauskas: How do the investments work? RickNelson: and it can be owned by local families instead of foreign hotel chains AndriusKulikauskas: How does the return on the investment work? RickNelson: like you have said a certain number of "weeks" owned per year in the EcoBnB network AndriusKulikauskas: Yes, I am looking for ways that avoid commitments to pay "interest". :: So the investment might work - if it is large - that you own a share in the home/land, so if it sold you get your share. RickNelson: and such investment would also allow that person to move along in the organization to become an EcoBnB owner AndriusKulikauskas: And you may sell or give your share to another (upon approval) :: and you get dividends in the form of "timeshares" that you can give or sell. RickNelson: there is a very successful business model for selling guest rooms to investors AndriusKulikauskas: And so that makes for an investment with return but without interest. :: That's interesting. :: And do they live in the guest rooms? or rent them?
RickNelson: yes, the interest is a negative and should not creep into the program :: see: AndriusKulikauskas: I see, that makes sense :: and it's nice that it's working :: What else should we discuss? RickNelson: but even better if they wish to ethically support this direction of development and to perhaps go into this business enterprise themselves at some point AndriusKulikauskas: I'm glad that you could engage Steve and Jeff and me :: Yes I think it's good for people to care about the business
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